Friday, September 10, 2004
I just got off the phone with Anonymous Wife. She accepted my proposal: we spend 10% less on the kitchen than she was planning, and in exchange I take 10% more days off from work this year. She liked that. So I'm feeling a bit better about the day.
To address something in the comments on the previous post: I didn't go to a top ten school, so I don't know what all the fuss is about people not ending up like me if they don't go to Stanford. Maybe you don't start at a place like this, but we do hire laterals, and they come from more places than the places we recruit from on campus. You want to end up here? You stick it out long enough, after the years of attrition steal away 95% of the associates who start, and we might get desperate enough to read your resume.
To address something else in the comments: Yes, the paralegal wants the money. I understand. I'm not stupid. But if I was a paralegal, I'd go to business school instead of this. At least at McKinsey you get to stay in fancy hotels and travel the country.
I think my secretary cracked the crystal I got from a client while she was dusting my shelves. I don't remember if the crack was there before or not. I don't know why clients think their service providers enjoy getting plaques, crystals, trophies, and other worthless trinkets commemorating the hours we spent sorting through their lease agreements. I'd rather have a gift basket.
To address something in the comments on the previous post: I didn't go to a top ten school, so I don't know what all the fuss is about people not ending up like me if they don't go to Stanford. Maybe you don't start at a place like this, but we do hire laterals, and they come from more places than the places we recruit from on campus. You want to end up here? You stick it out long enough, after the years of attrition steal away 95% of the associates who start, and we might get desperate enough to read your resume.
To address something else in the comments: Yes, the paralegal wants the money. I understand. I'm not stupid. But if I was a paralegal, I'd go to business school instead of this. At least at McKinsey you get to stay in fancy hotels and travel the country.
I think my secretary cracked the crystal I got from a client while she was dusting my shelves. I don't remember if the crack was there before or not. I don't know why clients think their service providers enjoy getting plaques, crystals, trophies, and other worthless trinkets commemorating the hours we spent sorting through their lease agreements. I'd rather have a gift basket.
# posted by Anonymous @ 6:07 PM 
Comments:
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Ha! 10% more than one week? Your wife must not like you very much. Then again, she probably knows you'll never take more time off (at least to be with her) so she'll go 10% over budget anyway.
And, oh, if you think there is more money in business school, you need to do some research:
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/careers/articles/0,15114,644753,00.html?promoid=cnn?yes=cnn
B-School is for chumps.
And, oh, if you think there is more money in business school, you need to do some research:
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/careers/articles/0,15114,644753,00.html?promoid=cnn?yes=cnn
B-School is for chumps.
# posted by 
: 7:40 PM
: 7:40 PM
No, I agree with the first post. B-school really is for chumps. MBAs are a dime a dozen. It's a joke.
# posted by : 8:58 AM
: 8:58 AM
Deep sigh. Such sad news! Is there any such thing like as an ideal career? One where you can like balance working hard, raising a family, and also having a fun or enjoyable job? I graduated from a good public school here in California with a liberal arts degree, but I have no idea what to do with my life. So I'm studying for the LSAT now but after reading some of this stuff I don't know if I even want to go to law school anymore. I know, I'm sad. But I think one thing that's important for me and maybe a lot of other immigrants is that being a lawyer your family and freinds really respect you and think you're really smart, so I like that about being a lawyer. But I also like computers, maybe I should have tried to study computer science since I'm on the internet 24/7 anyways! Anyways thanks Anonymous Lawyer your posts are informative and helpful though.
# posted by : 3:18 PM
: 3:18 PM
Not all lawyers hate their jobs. Some of them appear to love it.
And a lot of people hate their jobs just as much, and make 20% as much.
And a lot of people hate their jobs just as much, and make 20% as much.
# posted by : 11:16 PM
: 11:16 PM
The last comment is quite correct. Not all lawyers hate their jobs, lots of other people hate their jobs, and a lot of jobs people hate pay less than the average attorney's salary.
However, something to keep in mind is this. Not all law jobs pay all highly, contrary to the popular myth. Job dissatisfaction if higher amongst lawyers than other classes of educated occupations, according to the various state bars and the ABA that have looked into it. Indeed, it is so high that some various state bars have programs to try to rescue, for lack of a better wored, those lawyers who are slipping off into depression as a result of their jobs.
I mention these things as what is important is for a person entering this line of work to have some idea as to what it is actually like. Those who are going into it because it offers "prestige", or wealth, are likely in for a very rude awakening. They might, indeed, obtain the prestige of a selected few for whom, in their view, it matters, and they might end up rich. But they might not.
Life doesn't continue endlessly, and after a certain point, in spite of what people like to think, it becomes exceedingly difficult to change careers. Better that a person enter a career they will be satisfied with, than one they are stuck with.
The "Vet"
However, something to keep in mind is this. Not all law jobs pay all highly, contrary to the popular myth. Job dissatisfaction if higher amongst lawyers than other classes of educated occupations, according to the various state bars and the ABA that have looked into it. Indeed, it is so high that some various state bars have programs to try to rescue, for lack of a better wored, those lawyers who are slipping off into depression as a result of their jobs.
I mention these things as what is important is for a person entering this line of work to have some idea as to what it is actually like. Those who are going into it because it offers "prestige", or wealth, are likely in for a very rude awakening. They might, indeed, obtain the prestige of a selected few for whom, in their view, it matters, and they might end up rich. But they might not.
Life doesn't continue endlessly, and after a certain point, in spite of what people like to think, it becomes exceedingly difficult to change careers. Better that a person enter a career they will be satisfied with, than one they are stuck with.
The "Vet"
# posted by : 6:24 AM
: 6:24 AM
Well, Cis, you must be an MBA, because your research skills are for shite.
Here's a breakdown of average starting salaries, including bonuses, for MBA graduates from the Top Ten Ranked Business Schools:
Harvard $105,896
Stanford $107,320
Wharton (Penn $101,404
MIT $ 99,539
Northwestern $ 98,358
Columbia $ 98,611
Chicago $ 97,872
Berkeley $ 91,934
Dartmoth $ 96,714
Michigan $ 97,039
Here's a breakdown of starting salaries (_not_ including bonuses) for the Top Ten Ranked Law Schools:
Law Schools (2002)
Yale $125,000
Harvard $125,000
Stanford $125,000
Columbia $125,000
NYU $125,000
Chicago $125,000
Michigan $125,000
Penn $125,000
Virginia $115,000
Duke $125,000
(Northwestern $125,000)
Let's do a side-by-side comparison of schools that are on both lists:
School MBA JD
Harvard $105,896 $125,000
Stanford $107,320 $125,000
Penn $101,404 $125,000
Northwestern $ 98,358 $125,000
Chicago $ 97,872 $125,000
Michigan $ 97,039 $125,000
I'm just fine with the JD, thanks.
Besides, you missed the point of my original post *entirely*. If you'd bothered to go read the article I linked, or the paper that it referenced, you would see that the "value" of an MBA is seriously diminished if you don't graduate from one of those top schools. If, like the vast majority of people, you go to a good, regionally respected, but not top in the nation school, your MBA is worth far less than a JD.
And, as you can see, if you do happen to be fortunate enough to go to one of the Top Ten schools, you're going to earn more as a JD... not to mention, you won't have to deal with clueless MBAs.
Here's a breakdown of average starting salaries, including bonuses, for MBA graduates from the Top Ten Ranked Business Schools:
Harvard $105,896
Stanford $107,320
Wharton (Penn $101,404
MIT $ 99,539
Northwestern $ 98,358
Columbia $ 98,611
Chicago $ 97,872
Berkeley $ 91,934
Dartmoth $ 96,714
Michigan $ 97,039
Here's a breakdown of starting salaries (_not_ including bonuses) for the Top Ten Ranked Law Schools:
Law Schools (2002)
Yale $125,000
Harvard $125,000
Stanford $125,000
Columbia $125,000
NYU $125,000
Chicago $125,000
Michigan $125,000
Penn $125,000
Virginia $115,000
Duke $125,000
(Northwestern $125,000)
Let's do a side-by-side comparison of schools that are on both lists:
School MBA JD
Harvard $105,896 $125,000
Stanford $107,320 $125,000
Penn $101,404 $125,000
Northwestern $ 98,358 $125,000
Chicago $ 97,872 $125,000
Michigan $ 97,039 $125,000
I'm just fine with the JD, thanks.
Besides, you missed the point of my original post *entirely*. If you'd bothered to go read the article I linked, or the paper that it referenced, you would see that the "value" of an MBA is seriously diminished if you don't graduate from one of those top schools. If, like the vast majority of people, you go to a good, regionally respected, but not top in the nation school, your MBA is worth far less than a JD.
And, as you can see, if you do happen to be fortunate enough to go to one of the Top Ten schools, you're going to earn more as a JD... not to mention, you won't have to deal with clueless MBAs.
# posted by : 8:49 AM
: 8:49 AM
So those are the Top 10 law schools? Hmm. I don't see a significant difference between the last few schools on that list and, say, Berkeley, Georgetown, or Cornell. Why the need to pigeonhole everything into factors of five?
# posted by : 8:14 PM
: 8:14 PM
Cis: show me one "top" CA law firm that pays less than 125k per year. My offer was for 130. I don't know anyone (besides keker, which is a lifestlye boutique) who pays 120.
Seattle and Portland may drag down the West Coast average, but those are not first-tier markets, especially portland.
Your average salaries include those clerking (who will then jump on the biglaw gravy train at a higher salary, plus a bonus) and those doing public interest, so are skewed in that respect. I would guess MBAs do much less of those types of jobs (although I know some work for nonprofits).
Furthermore, this is way late, but AL's crack about how mckinsey is better shows that he's never worked in corporate america in a position where travel is expected. You don't see the country at mckinsey (I worked there). You see conference rooms and early-morning flights, and get to know your regular town car driver better than your roommates (or family). It's atrocious and nobody should subject themselves to that life.
Seattle and Portland may drag down the West Coast average, but those are not first-tier markets, especially portland.
Your average salaries include those clerking (who will then jump on the biglaw gravy train at a higher salary, plus a bonus) and those doing public interest, so are skewed in that respect. I would guess MBAs do much less of those types of jobs (although I know some work for nonprofits).
Furthermore, this is way late, but AL's crack about how mckinsey is better shows that he's never worked in corporate america in a position where travel is expected. You don't see the country at mckinsey (I worked there). You see conference rooms and early-morning flights, and get to know your regular town car driver better than your roommates (or family). It's atrocious and nobody should subject themselves to that life.
# posted by : 12:58 PM
: 12:58 PM
Actually, Cis, I get my info from the horses mouth: U.S. News and World Reports. Which is the defacto ranking publisher for school rankings.
Additionally, I don't know a single grad from my school (which is one of those top schools) who got less than those posted salaries -- unless they chose to go work for a government agency. Period. Most got larger salaries than that.
I know a number of MBAs, all chumps like you.
Additionally, I don't know a single grad from my school (which is one of those top schools) who got less than those posted salaries -- unless they chose to go work for a government agency. Period. Most got larger salaries than that.
I know a number of MBAs, all chumps like you.
# posted by : 5:50 PM
: 5:50 PM
Oh, CIS, the "data" you quoted from the ILRG is from *1996*... or did you not bother to check that either?
# posted by : 5:57 PM
: 5:57 PM
Just wandered onto this site while searching for information on law schools. If this Cis guy is an MBA, then he's not exactly giving me a good impression of MBAs in general.
"Or maybe you just suck at math"? Is Cis in gradeschool or something, or is he seriously trying to converse with mannered professionals? What a jackass.
"Or maybe you just suck at math"? Is Cis in gradeschool or something, or is he seriously trying to converse with mannered professionals? What a jackass.
# posted by : 1:06 AM
: 1:06 AM << Home
