Wednesday, September 15, 2004

You know what I hate? The Jewish holidays. It's defensible to make someone work on their kid's birthday. It's defensible to make them work when their dad's having surgery. It's defensible to make them come back in three weeks after they have a baby. But for some reason, you call it a holiday - and it's not just the Jewish holidays I'm talking about; it's any holiday - and people want to guilt you into letting them take time off. Our clients don't care if it's the American New Year, the Jewish New Year, or the Chinese New Year. I hate hearing that someone wasn't planning on coming into the office on Presidents Day, or Labor Day, or July 4th: what are you celebrating, and why can't you be here? You want an hour off on Christmas Eve to go to mass? I'm willing to let you do that. Two hours to go to temple on Yom Kippur? Fine. I won't schedule the meeting right at sundown. An hour to take your daughter to the doctor for a pregnancy test? I'm willing to be flexible. But you don't need four days off in two weeks for the Jewish holidays, especially right when everyone's getting back into the swing of things after their August vacations; you don't need a 4-day weekend to give thanks for the Pilgrims, especially less a month before Christmas; and you can take your wife out to dinner the day after Valentine's Day when the restaurants are less crowded. Children go to school on their birthdays; you can come to work on George Washington's birthday, Martin Luther King's birthday, and Jesus's birthday.

And you want to know why Americans are over worked...HMMM let me think it is b/c of stupid attitudes like yours. We are the only country in the world that works way to much. So what if we want days off in observance of some holidays. We have worked to get those days off, if you don't want to observe those holidays than you go to work but has for me and probably every other American citizen out there we will take those days off and actaully enjoy our life. How will you say you lived your life...ummm I worked my whole life, I really don't know who I am outside of work and I am a complete loser workaholic. So you enjoy your life and I will enjoy my days off from my already busy life.
AL, you need to implement a 2-pronged test people must meet before they can post comments: (1) over age 16; (2) fluent in English. Silver clearly does not meet either prong, let alone both.
Silver's profile says she is 21.
Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I find that I am a considerably better worker after having a few days off to reflect on "life, the universe, and everything." Or to spend time with family and friends. Or to do things outside of work. In other words, taking time away from work in whatever size, shape, or form (or religious or national holiday), helps me to perform significantly better, such that the time spent away from work would easily justify itself in terms of my overall increased productivity. Just my take is all. Maybe others are different and need constant or near constant immersion in the office or job to be able to function at their very best; I'm just not one of these people.
AL, may I point out that you spent the previous post talking about what a callous, souless culture your office is, and you complain in this one about people wanting a holiday from it?
If anyone needs a break from work to reflect on family and spirit, frankly, it sounds like it's you guys.
I agree- how dare these people put their religion (actually more of a way of life), health, and families ahead of working in an office. those bastards. punish them by making them work seven days a week. who needs any time off?
Anonymous : 3:19 PM, I saw that, but she writes like a 12 year old. I reviewed her blog and I find it disheartening that she is apparently about to get a college degree.
Hee hee!
I'll come in on all the holidays if you let me off work when my newborn is deathly ill in the hospital. Also, with respect to childbirth, I'm assuming you mean you'll give the mother 3 weeks off (very generous); not the father right -- please clarify.
"Kevin J. Heller, Esq."

Oh boy. Why not append a "Dr." to your title as well? Might as well maximize the full potential of your JD.
This is great.

I am a nurse now and going through law school. I figure that the one of the "perks" that I get to have when I'm finished is that I don't have to work every single holiday when I am in law.

They don't shut down the hospital ICU for any holidays. I'm used to working them. And, if need be, I'd do it as an attorney too. The idea of having one off every now and then does strike me as appealing though.

Besides, working on a holiday iss always a good excuse to get away from family obligations.
AN, you have turned into a troll. Your post is for no other reason than to solicit responses. Yawn. Time for me to find some new sites.

Miami 1L
hey Cis,

So nice that you could add something to the conversation.
Anonymous Lawyer, you are my hero.
I'm not as worried about those taking time off for religous events as I am with the freakin' British!

Everytime I phone our London office to discuss a contract I'm informed that it's a "Bank Holiday" and no one is in the office.

Also many of our paralegals and support staff are becoming disgruntled because when we hire for an equivilant position in the UK they automatically start with 26 vacation/holiday days. Here in the U.S. you have to be with the firm for at least 10+ years to even hope of approaching that amount of time off.

Also in the UK, when someone is out having a child they can take up to 1 year off from work and we are required to hold their position until they decide to return...
AL, you are awe-inspiring.
Nurse, you are in for a very, very, very RUDE awakening and you are VERY naive if you think any legal career that involves working for any entity (firm or even government) will give you easier hours than being a nurse, holidays and every other day.
I don't think that I EVER said I was looking for easier hours. I am fully aware that I have more time and make more money as a nurse than I will as an attorney.

But dealing with people who are dying and on life support on a daily basis gets old, my body can't do this type of work forever, and I'm finally doing what Ive always wanted to.

If I get burnt out like you guys, maybe I'll change my mind. Then I'll just go back to being a nurse again, and work my 3 or 4 days a week. It isn't a bad deal, starting a second career knowing you can always fall back on the first one.
Cis, sorry to ask you this question here-I've been meaning to every time I stop by AL's weblog but keep forgetting to (not sure how else to reach you)-but are you in the IT or computer industry? If so, why are you switching to the law out of curiosity? I'm in the same boat as you are, I'm currently in the IT industry (net admin), really love my job, but seems like I will hit the pay ceiling if I make this a permanent career (I'm new). Security seems to be hot and I could go on and get a MS in security, and make this into a more stable job instead of fearing that I'll be out of a job once I start getting older and everything, but then again maybe even an MS won't help. That's why I'm considering the law, because it seems much more stable, where I'll have more job security, etc. It's not as "fun" as messing around with computers to me, but it would be worth trading that off for job security, higher income, even though it's more stressful. Any thoughts whether this is right or wrong thinking on my part? I'd love to hear from a fellow IT guy! Thanks! :)
cis, because you seem to be an arrogant know-it-all, i am pleased to inform you that your comment to Heller, Esq. is replete with idiocy: having a J.D. does not entitle one to be referred to as "Dr." DUH!
Hey Anonymous 3:49 PM, do you even know what J.D. stands for? Juris DOCTOR, perhaps? Duh indeed.
Duh indeed. A JD does not carry the right to the title doctor, regardless the nominal meaning of the letters.

Also, as a historical point, the JD degree replaced the LLB degree (which old school profs and lawyers still have - and which is the standard law degree in most common law countries). A person with an LLB is not a doctor. Why would someone with the equivalent, but renamed degree be a doctor?
To continue that line of thought - a JD is a basic law degree. It is then followed, in order of ranking by an LLM, and then finally by a doctorate in law - the SJD. The SJD, like a PhD entitles the holder to call themselves of a doctor. Any JD that calls themselves Dr. X is a dipshit.
And double dipshits call themselves Esquire
And triple dipshits earn $150,000 a year and complain about the "hours". If you don't like it, don't work it and take a paycut. Simple. Life is full of choices. Take responsibility for them. No one likes whiners.
In your discussion of "common law countries" - did it ever occur to you that an LLB or basic law degrees in those contries are "bachelors" _because_the_students_don't_go_to_undergrad_first?

You can begin a legal program straight from secondary school (ie, Ireland). Not to mention the differences of Inns of Court, apprentice-ship requirements, etc.

Get a clue, the American law school system grants a *professional* doctorate - a graduate degree. Same as med school. PhDs are *academic* doctorates.

You are comparing apples and oranges.
While I hesitate to post re the "Dr." item, FWIW, and it is probably worth nothing in the context of the thread, in some non common law countries, lawyers actually do use the "Dr." I believe that is the case in Germany, for example.

I presume that has something to do with their degrees, but given as I have no idea as to their systems and educations, I'll not comment further. And with that, I'll bow back out of this thread.
Blogger offers me the choice of anonymous or Kevin J Heller Esq. I'm too lazy to pick a different user and don't need to hide behind the veil of anonymity like all of you. The Esq. differentiates me from the thousand other kevin heller out there on the web. I don't sign my name as the techlawadvisor. This discussion isnt even on topic.
Of course I knew that you moron. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, England (to an extent, but you don't even need a law degree there to be a lawyer) offer undergrad law degrees - the LLB. That is not really the point - the point is whether a JD entitles a person to call themselves doctor - the common view being no.

Also, in those countries medschool is also undergrad, however graduates of those institutions are called Dr .... ohhh!!!
I have a JD '76 from a US university and an LLM '79 from a European University. Had I gone to law school a century ago, my degree would have been an LLB. I heard that the reason it changed in the US was that seating at international diplomatic conferences is rated according to your degrees and a JD trumps an LLB. So the US did it to get better seating for their diplomats.

Here is the wikipedia entry on JDs vs LLBs:

The J.D. was formerly known as the LL.B. in most U.S. universities, and was changed to confer an equivalent professional status found in other American professions (i.e., medicine, dentistry, etc.). The LL.M., "Master of Laws", is a post J.D. degree (similar post professional doctorate programs at the master's level can also be found in dentistry and veterinary medicine). Doctors of law who are admitted to the practice of law often append the suffix Esq. to the end of their names, but are not commonly referred to as "Doctor". (While the Juris Doctor is a professional doctorate, similar to the Medicinæ Doctor (Doctor of Medicine), legal convention has not universally accepted the use of such title among lawyers in the U.S.) Other graduate law degrees such as the Doctor of Juridical Science (J.S.D.), Doctor of the Science of Law (L.Sc.D.), and the Legum Doctor or Doctor of Laws (LL.D.) confer the academic and social title of "Doctor," but is rarely used by practicing lawyers in the U.S. The exception to practicing U.S. lawyers using the title of "Doctor" involves those holding other doctorates outside of their fields (i.e., M.D./J.D., Ph.D./J.D., etc.).
Re: Anonymous @ 3:10 PM --

Yes, my undergraduate degree is in electrical engineering. My original goal was to work in the architectural design of high-end, general-purpose microprocessors or system design, but I soon found out that the only people doing this are people with 20+ years of experience or a PhD. I have neither 20 years of experience nor a PhD.

Further adding to the problem is the fact that there's been a consolidation in the high-end microprocessor market in the past decade. Ten years ago, you had HP, DEC, Intel, AMD, IBM, Cray, SGI, Sun, Fujitsu, NEC, Amdahl, Motorola, Convex, Thinking Machines, and Kendall Square Research all making high-end processors. Today, you have Intel, IBM, AMD, and then Fujitsu & Sun for a few more months (until they abandon their most-recent projects, as they tend to do). Given that you only need 3-10 architects for a new processor, and given that the number of companies which design high-end, general-purpose processors are shrinking to an asymptotic level of about 3 (IBM, Intel, AMD), it's certainly not easy to get hired for this type of position.

So, if I can't do what I love, I might as well do something which pays very well. Like getting my MBa from Wharton and going to work for Goldman-Sachs :p

I think that, if you can really break in to the security market, that would be quite lucrative for you. There aren't a lot of security *experts* out there with the accompanying experience, and Fortune 500 companies are willing to pay top-notch salaries to those who know how to lock a network down. People are slowly realizing that the cost of commodity Lintel systems with MCSE sysadmins isn't what you pay for upfront. Perhaps this is why the largest server growth market in 2003/2004 (to date) has been the zSeries IBM Mainframe line of servers.

Otherwise, write your LSAT and go wild.
When I say "Lintel," I mean "Wintel." I only say "Lintel" because I'm dyslexic or something.
hey anonymous 4:44 pm from anonymous 3:49 pm- i am not such a moron to not know what J.D. stands for. BUT, that does not entitle a J.D. to be referred to as DOCTOR. some people are so stupid - think before you write!
It's the slackers who want to take Good Friday off who annoy me. They yell and scream about Yom Kippur (which is sort of like spending a day in an ethics CLE, but bigger) and then they all skip work for a Yahrzeit.
Chilling how this post was about all holidays, both religious and secular; yet "Jewish holidays" get top billing. I thought there was some sort of ethics standards for lawyers. Here's an online smack for your not-so-subtle anti Semitism...*Schmek*
In the UK we don't need to make excuses for taking time off (for religious holidays of whatever hue). We are a civilised society; hence 26 days' holiday etc. Now stop wasting time commenting and get back to work.
Why not make it clear during hiring that no time can be taken off under any circumstances. You're a lawyer. I'm sure you can arrange it.

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